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	<title>Comments on: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom</title>
	<atom:link href="http://vectorpoem.com/news/?feed=rss2&#038;p=74" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74</link>
	<description>game design, expressive play, interactive art, and so on.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 09:41:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Enlaces bonitos &#124; El Chigüire Literario</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-2710</link>
		<dc:creator>Enlaces bonitos &#124; El Chigüire Literario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-2710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] segundo es un viejo pero interesante artículo sobre cómo innovar en los videojuegos no siempre es sobre ir en direcciones desconocidas, sino ir al orig..., usando como ejemplo al viejo Doom de [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] segundo es un viejo pero interesante artículo sobre cómo innovar en los videojuegos no siempre es sobre ir en direcciones desconocidas, sino ir al orig&#8230;, usando como ejemplo al viejo Doom de [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Staging Point &#187; Blog Archive &#187; F.E.A.R. of a flashlight</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-2437</link>
		<dc:creator>The Staging Point &#187; Blog Archive &#187; F.E.A.R. of a flashlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-2437</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] reminded of an excellent essay on the lasting appeal of the original Doom, which had infinitely less believable environments but which turned that into a virtue: While some [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reminded of an excellent essay on the lasting appeal of the original Doom, which had infinitely less believable environments but which turned that into a virtue: While some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/cc62ecb520e2979.png" alt="JP Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> JP</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1682</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/cc62ecb520e2979.png" alt="JP Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey folks, I have to disallow comments on this post, it&#039;s drawing too much spam.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey folks, I have to disallow comments on this post, it&#8217;s drawing too much spam.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/6607af4fa51ff43.png" alt="Optimus Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Optimus</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1657</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/6607af4fa51ff43.png" alt="Optimus Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Optimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey man, there is no need for such anger! (though some parts of the post were informative, didn&#039;t know about virtuality, that feels so retrofuture :)

I revisited this article again and seem to like even more some points. I think my I have formed new brain cells suitable for doom playing, strafing, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each monster, going into a room full of monsters, my brain in automatic controls knows which to finish first or where to hide, that happens after playing doom WADs for several years, though the strafe defense, variety of monsters help in this and this is really something I cannot find in any other modern FPS. All these elements and the community makes me still enjoy playing doom more than anything else, but maybe it&#039;s my brain cells evolved to play this game.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey man, there is no need for such anger! (though some parts of the post were informative, didn&#8217;t know about virtuality, that feels so retrofuture <img src='http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I revisited this article again and seem to like even more some points. I think my I have formed new brain cells suitable for doom playing, strafing, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each monster, going into a room full of monsters, my brain in automatic controls knows which to finish first or where to hide, that happens after playing doom WADs for several years, though the strafe defense, variety of monsters help in this and this is really something I cannot find in any other modern FPS. All these elements and the community makes me still enjoy playing doom more than anything else, but maybe it&#8217;s my brain cells evolved to play this game.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/e0a97f268dcf865.png" alt="Old-Timer McGee Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Old-Timer McGee</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1652</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/e0a97f268dcf865.png" alt="Old-Timer McGee Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Old-Timer McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Although I agree Doom does not feel like modern shooters, it does not feel like 2D shooters in the least.  Not having an overhead view of everything drastically changes gameplay.

&quot;This is what Doom’s designers were working from in 1993 – back then, the idea of a first person shooter was barely established, and their closest models for many mechanics were from 2D shooters like Robotron, Berserk and Tempest.&quot;

You must be trying to troll me?  Well, you&#039;ve succeeded, I&#039;m right pissed off.

It was my experience, having lived through a the evolution of FPS games, that Fully Immersive Virtual Reality Games (complete with VR Headsets) existed well before Doom... In fact in 1991 the Virtuality game system existed.  With it I played Dactyl Nightmare and Exorex.  Both WHILE Doom was in development.  Are you saying ID didn&#039;t have such games to work with?  These may not have been the ones, but the CLOSEST games to draw game play from were 2D?!  I think Not!

Just because you have chosen to be an ignorant Philistine and ignore the OVER TWENTY YEARS of 3D First Person Shooters PRIOR to Doom, doesn&#039;t mean we all have.  JP, you sir, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Are you so overly self-absorbed that your retarded revelation that using the IDDT cheat makes Doom into a 2D Shooter to even SEARCH the Internet we build for you before spouting your mindless drivel?!

Here! I shall hold your hand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter#Early_first-person_shooters:_1970s_to_early_1990s

Name ONE.  Just ONE 2D Shooter where you can see all the enemies positions, and they only know where you are via 3D Line of Sight calculations... As is played in the IDDT Debug cheat you reference.  Robotron My Ass!

&quot;The notion of realism in FPS design wouldn’t appear for another few years&quot; -- What Nonsense IS This?!  You sir have slapped me, and the ENTIRE 3D INDUSTRY in the face -- Damn your small-minded self-centered mental masturbation puff-piece to HELL!

ID Made THREE Catacombs FPS games for Softdisk before Wolfenstein3D -- Where were YOU?  These were all slow paced FPS games, Heavily Concerned with Adding MORE realism in each iteration! o_O

Romero&#039;s Vision of a Fast Paced Visceral FPS, and THOUSANDS of hours of play-testing honed Doom into what it was.  Back-pedal all you want, It still doesn&#039;t change the fact that your assumptions and comparisons are WRONG!

Where were YOU, when I was playing a FULLY 3D First Person Perspective Shooter in 1986: Starglider, and the sequel with filed 3D Polygonal MODELS in 1988, on my Home PC, Seven and Five years respectively BEFORE Doom&#039;s release?!

The 3D and FPS Industry helped to sell computers in the 70&#039;s, 80&#039;s &amp; 90&#039;s...

Furthermore, The Demo Scene&#039;s 3D contributions were heavily influential to nearly ALL game designers of the era...

Where were YOU when the SACRIFICE was made to abandon True 3D game play and graphics for the sake of TEXTURES and REALISM!?  The 2.5D Era of Textured Graphics evolved from the FULLY 3D FPS game world, NOT the 2D world AT ALL.

There were Hundreds if not Thousands of FPS games, even Gun Toting Games that were very unrealistic with their &quot;plastic&quot; and futuristic solid filled polygon feel that would have made EXCELLENT comparisons to back your Article&#039;s Agenda...

...But Nooo, You Finally decide to make a Doom Map, and all of a sudden you think you&#039;re some wise Oracle, about to educate today&#039;s gamers of the Trials and Tribulations that led to the Revolution in 3D FPS Games?!

JP, You of ALL people should have known better.  YOU DISCREDIT and Disrespect Yourself via this article!  &quot;It&#039;s better to keep quiet and have others think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.&quot;

I would have thought that YOU of ALL People, a Respected individual in the 3D Industry, would care the slightest bit about the Founders and Trail blazers upon who&#039;s shoulders you stand to at least learn something of your roots... If not for your own edification, at the very least before spouting this nonsense to the masses.

We payed a HEAVY toll as gamers and game makers to make 3D relevant despite the insane costs and an unsure future -- Tempest? Berserk?!  I would laugh if it wasn&#039;t so disgracefully ignorant.

Look, just because YOU don&#039;t have any prior 3D FPS experience to draw from to make valid comparisons via doesn&#039;t mean your first naive assumption is correct.

I agree that Doom has game play mechanics that are lost to most of today&#039;s FPS playing generation, but Smith and Wesson were NOT influenced by a Neanderthal&#039;s
flint tipped spear!

Additionally, if you actually record a demo of your gameplay in FPS, then record one of the same level in &quot;Top Down IDDT&quot; mode and compare the results -- You&#039;ll see two VERY different game-plays.  Omniscience and First Person Perspective are wholly game changing factors, even when the same map is played.

I concede your point that an interesting game-play mechanic is largely under utilized, but your attempted execution to convey this severely hampered by your flawed premise.

&quot;[M]any decisions were made simply on the basis of being good for abstract shooter gameplay.&quot;

This statement was true of nearly ALL prior FPS Games!  Doom did not evolve from it&#039;s map-mode into the 3D game it is today.

Sharing some small mechanic in PART of a game&#039;s play is not enough to make such strong statements. Correlation dose not imply Causation!  Critical Thinking, Man!  Learn It!


Clearly good my opinion of you was wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I agree Doom does not feel like modern shooters, it does not feel like 2D shooters in the least.  Not having an overhead view of everything drastically changes gameplay.</p>
<p>&#8220;This is what Doom’s designers were working from in 1993 – back then, the idea of a first person shooter was barely established, and their closest models for many mechanics were from 2D shooters like Robotron, Berserk and Tempest.&#8221;</p>
<p>You must be trying to troll me?  Well, you&#8217;ve succeeded, I&#8217;m right pissed off.</p>
<p>It was my experience, having lived through a the evolution of FPS games, that Fully Immersive Virtual Reality Games (complete with VR Headsets) existed well before Doom&#8230; In fact in 1991 the Virtuality game system existed.  With it I played Dactyl Nightmare and Exorex.  Both WHILE Doom was in development.  Are you saying ID didn&#8217;t have such games to work with?  These may not have been the ones, but the CLOSEST games to draw game play from were 2D?!  I think Not!</p>
<p>Just because you have chosen to be an ignorant Philistine and ignore the OVER TWENTY YEARS of 3D First Person Shooters PRIOR to Doom, doesn&#8217;t mean we all have.  JP, you sir, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.</p>
<p>Are you so overly self-absorbed that your retarded revelation that using the IDDT cheat makes Doom into a 2D Shooter to even SEARCH the Internet we build for you before spouting your mindless drivel?!</p>
<p>Here! I shall hold your hand:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter#Early_first-person_shooters:_1970s_to_early_1990s" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter#Early_first-person_shooters:_1970s_to_early_1990s</a></p>
<p>Name ONE.  Just ONE 2D Shooter where you can see all the enemies positions, and they only know where you are via 3D Line of Sight calculations&#8230; As is played in the IDDT Debug cheat you reference.  Robotron My Ass!</p>
<p>&#8220;The notion of realism in FPS design wouldn’t appear for another few years&#8221; &#8212; What Nonsense IS This?!  You sir have slapped me, and the ENTIRE 3D INDUSTRY in the face &#8212; Damn your small-minded self-centered mental masturbation puff-piece to HELL!</p>
<p>ID Made THREE Catacombs FPS games for Softdisk before Wolfenstein3D &#8212; Where were YOU?  These were all slow paced FPS games, Heavily Concerned with Adding MORE realism in each iteration! o_O</p>
<p>Romero&#8217;s Vision of a Fast Paced Visceral FPS, and THOUSANDS of hours of play-testing honed Doom into what it was.  Back-pedal all you want, It still doesn&#8217;t change the fact that your assumptions and comparisons are WRONG!</p>
<p>Where were YOU, when I was playing a FULLY 3D First Person Perspective Shooter in 1986: Starglider, and the sequel with filed 3D Polygonal MODELS in 1988, on my Home PC, Seven and Five years respectively BEFORE Doom&#8217;s release?!</p>
<p>The 3D and FPS Industry helped to sell computers in the 70&#8242;s, 80&#8242;s &amp; 90&#8242;s&#8230;</p>
<p>Furthermore, The Demo Scene&#8217;s 3D contributions were heavily influential to nearly ALL game designers of the era&#8230;</p>
<p>Where were YOU when the SACRIFICE was made to abandon True 3D game play and graphics for the sake of TEXTURES and REALISM!?  The 2.5D Era of Textured Graphics evolved from the FULLY 3D FPS game world, NOT the 2D world AT ALL.</p>
<p>There were Hundreds if not Thousands of FPS games, even Gun Toting Games that were very unrealistic with their &#8220;plastic&#8221; and futuristic solid filled polygon feel that would have made EXCELLENT comparisons to back your Article&#8217;s Agenda&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;But Nooo, You Finally decide to make a Doom Map, and all of a sudden you think you&#8217;re some wise Oracle, about to educate today&#8217;s gamers of the Trials and Tribulations that led to the Revolution in 3D FPS Games?!</p>
<p>JP, You of ALL people should have known better.  YOU DISCREDIT and Disrespect Yourself via this article!  &#8220;It&#8217;s better to keep quiet and have others think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would have thought that YOU of ALL People, a Respected individual in the 3D Industry, would care the slightest bit about the Founders and Trail blazers upon who&#8217;s shoulders you stand to at least learn something of your roots&#8230; If not for your own edification, at the very least before spouting this nonsense to the masses.</p>
<p>We payed a HEAVY toll as gamers and game makers to make 3D relevant despite the insane costs and an unsure future &#8212; Tempest? Berserk?!  I would laugh if it wasn&#8217;t so disgracefully ignorant.</p>
<p>Look, just because YOU don&#8217;t have any prior 3D FPS experience to draw from to make valid comparisons via doesn&#8217;t mean your first naive assumption is correct.</p>
<p>I agree that Doom has game play mechanics that are lost to most of today&#8217;s FPS playing generation, but Smith and Wesson were NOT influenced by a Neanderthal&#8217;s<br />
flint tipped spear!</p>
<p>Additionally, if you actually record a demo of your gameplay in FPS, then record one of the same level in &#8220;Top Down IDDT&#8221; mode and compare the results &#8212; You&#8217;ll see two VERY different game-plays.  Omniscience and First Person Perspective are wholly game changing factors, even when the same map is played.</p>
<p>I concede your point that an interesting game-play mechanic is largely under utilized, but your attempted execution to convey this severely hampered by your flawed premise.</p>
<p>&#8220;[M]any decisions were made simply on the basis of being good for abstract shooter gameplay.&#8221;</p>
<p>This statement was true of nearly ALL prior FPS Games!  Doom did not evolve from it&#8217;s map-mode into the 3D game it is today.</p>
<p>Sharing some small mechanic in PART of a game&#8217;s play is not enough to make such strong statements. Correlation dose not imply Causation!  Critical Thinking, Man!  Learn It!</p>
<p>Clearly good my opinion of you was wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/2096dbf00ba47b6.png" alt="Carlos Alexandre Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Carlos Alexandre</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/2096dbf00ba47b6.png" alt="Carlos Alexandre Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Carlos Alexandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recently wrote a post comparing Classic DOOM to classic Mario games, and a commenter linked me to this post. Very well written.

My post, if you&#039;re interested:
http://handsomefatman.com/carlos/classic-doom-pioneered/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently wrote a post comparing Classic DOOM to classic Mario games, and a commenter linked me to this post. Very well written.</p>
<p>My post, if you&#8217;re interested:<br />
<a href="http://handsomefatman.com/carlos/classic-doom-pioneered/" rel="nofollow">http://handsomefatman.com/carlos/classic-doom-pioneered/</a></p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/12aa56f7285f527.png" alt="Mike Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Mike</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1640</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/12aa56f7285f527.png" alt="Mike Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just wanted to say that I agree with the agile/speed comment. I would also add the huge cult success of Serious Sam can be directly contributed to similar factors in movement, for both the player and enemies.  Perhaps mention this as well?

Good article.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to say that I agree with the agile/speed comment. I would also add the huge cult success of Serious Sam can be directly contributed to similar factors in movement, for both the player and enemies.  Perhaps mention this as well?</p>
<p>Good article.</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/9fe437334703d2e.png" alt="hipster scumbag Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> hipster scumbag</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1637</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/9fe437334703d2e.png" alt="hipster scumbag Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> hipster scumbag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just wanted to thank you for this post - really hits the nail on the head as to why Doom holds up years and years later, and summarizes its strongest but least-imitated virtues]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to thank you for this post &#8211; really hits the nail on the head as to why Doom holds up years and years later, and summarizes its strongest but least-imitated virtues</p>
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		<title>By: <img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/3adb8307f7cc579.png" alt="Corrector Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Corrector</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1635</link>
		<dc:creator><img class="identicon" src="http://vectorpoem.com/news/wp-content/plugins/identicon/3adb8307f7cc579.png" alt="Corrector Identicon Icon" height="35" width="35" /> Corrector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1635</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sheridan: you&#039;re actually *precisely* wrong about zombie men; the reason they can miss like that is entirely b/c they are only capable of shooting directly at the player, but are not permitted to shoot immediately.

Algorithm is like:
- (1) choose direction to fire (this is always directly at player&#039;s current position)
- (2) wait for a brief delay (cannot change firing direction)
- (3) fire weapon (in direction chosen in 1)

When they miss like that it&#039;s b/c the payer moved between (1) and (3). This delay is in the game to make it possible to dodge enemies with instant weapons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheridan: you&#8217;re actually *precisely* wrong about zombie men; the reason they can miss like that is entirely b/c they are only capable of shooting directly at the player, but are not permitted to shoot immediately.</p>
<p>Algorithm is like:<br />
- (1) choose direction to fire (this is always directly at player&#8217;s current position)<br />
- (2) wait for a brief delay (cannot change firing direction)<br />
- (3) fire weapon (in direction chosen in 1)</p>
<p>When they miss like that it&#8217;s b/c the payer moved between (1) and (3). This delay is in the game to make it possible to dodge enemies with instant weapons.</p>
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		<title>By: FPS Analysis &#8211; Why Doom is the Last Real Lesson we Had &#124; FPSTime</title>
		<link>http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74&#038;cpage=2#comment-1634</link>
		<dc:creator>FPS Analysis &#8211; Why Doom is the Last Real Lesson we Had &#124; FPSTime</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74#comment-1634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (Source: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom &#124; vector poem) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (Source: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom | vector poem) [...]</p>
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